ded_maxim: (hello cthulhu!)
ded_maxim ([personal profile] ded_maxim) wrote2009-03-20 02:16 pm

цитата дня

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

[identity profile] ded-maxim.livejournal.com 2009-03-21 03:31 am (UTC)(link)
Some of what you say is certainly true, especially in regard to mortgages. It has been widely acknowledged that the vast numbers of home owners in this country are to a large extent due to government policies that promoted home ownership above renting. But things are more complicated than the recent wingnut mantra "it was Teh Blacks" would suggest.

As for the distinction between people who need help and those who demand help: that distinction is certainly there. Unfortunately, it has been totally lost on the assholes (starting with Michelle Malkin) who decided to go after Graeme Frost and his parents (http://themoderatevoice.com/15509/the-war-against-graeme-frost-get-that-school-kid/). Those moochers, who tried to claim Michelle Malkin's product (whatever that is) by tears!

As for "duplicating the effort": how widespread, would you say, is the practice of not keeping a fire extinguisher in one's home, seeing as how the fire department is there?

[identity profile] wsobchak.livejournal.com 2009-03-21 03:39 am (UTC)(link)
Most of the people I knew who got homes they couldn't afford were white. Of course, this is observer bias, since I don't hang out with too many blacks or hispanics. Please don't imply that my argument is a racist one.

Graeme Frost's case reminds me of that National Lampoon cover, you know, "if you don't buy this magazine, we're gonna shoot this dog."

The fire extinguisher fills a niche that the fire department can't, that is, one of being immediately available. What niche can your personal charity fill that an all-providing government can't? Hell, they've got all kinds of people with Master's degrees employed full-time to determine how best to provide for any particular needy individual-they're called social workers. It's sort of hubris to think you can get a better insight into any particular case than they, right?

[identity profile] ded-maxim.livejournal.com 2009-03-21 03:50 am (UTC)(link)
I never intended to imply that your argument was racist. I merely pointed out that the race issue was conveniently trotted out by the right as the whole Fannie and Freddie debacle was unfolding. In another comment below you say that blaming the suits and not the individuals is cheap populism, and I will agree with you there. However, blaming the individuals and claiming that the financial institutions were just doing what's in their nature (the whole frog and scorpion parable) is not something I would want to engage in either.

As for observer bias: almost everyone I knew in high school now owns a home in the 'burbs. I think I'm the only one who still rents. Then again, I'm the only one who decided to go into academia. Until college, I mostly hung out with other Russian immigrants, and there was definitely a well-defined set of social expectations out there: own a home, two cars, the usual blah-blah. It's interesting how quickly these social expectations were absorbed by the first-generation immigrants.

Finally, about the government and helping people. My own view is that the government should at least provide the absolute minimal safety net, but I don't advocate single-payer health care. If some rich guy wants to pay for access to the newest experimental treatments, there should be no barriers to that. I don't presume to make the case for an "all-providing government", by any means. But some minimal provisions must be there -- e.g., natural disaster relief.

[identity profile] wsobchak.livejournal.com 2009-03-21 08:54 am (UTC)(link)
The financial institutions bet on the individuals by and large covering their financial committments-continuing to pay their mortgage with the paycheck they claimed to earn. This was remarkable optimism, given the facts on the ground. Recent developments have shown that it was completely misplaced. However, in 2005 an analyst going "these poor beaners (for instance, since most of the foreclosures we're seeing are in CA, AZ, NV and NM) will never swing a $470K house as long as their major source of income is landscaping" would have been drummed out of his office. The people who created this culture are the slick Jon Stewarts of our society. Blaming the financial institutions for this is like blaming two guys in a three-legged race for having a poor time in the hundred-yard dash.

I avoided hanging out with Russian immigrants for this exact reason-most of the time, they became caricatures of the Americans they were trying to emulate. But if I had to guess, I'd say most of them are not having much trouble swinging their mortgages now.

What's an absolute minimum safety net? A GP medium tent shared by 15 people and pork and beans every day? Well, I'd be down for that, but it seems like private charity could provide the same thing for a fraction of the price, since they wouldn't have to pay for social workers. It's all theoretical, since the goods and services the government provides unproductive members of society go far beyond that.

[identity profile] ygam.livejournal.com 2009-03-22 12:04 am (UTC)(link)
I avoided hanging out with Russian immigrants for this exact reason-most of the time, they became caricatures of the Americans they were trying to emulate.

Хорошо излагаешь!

[identity profile] wsobchak.livejournal.com 2009-03-22 05:06 am (UTC)(link)
thanks